Whitley Strieber on Dreamland with Dr. John Mack
Sunday November 14, 1999

Transcript prepared by BeyondCommunion.Com
© 1999 Premeire Radio Network

This is Whitley Strieber, it's Dreamland. Tonight we have a great show. We are privileged to have Dr. John Mack, Pulitzer Prize winning author of Abduction and the new book Passport to the Cosmos. Dr. Mack is a professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, founding director for the Program for Extraordinary Experience Research, and in my opinion, now the world's leading authority on alien abductions. You will find out things from him and from his incredible new book tonight that you did not know before, that are going to make you realize that this is something worth thinking about very, very hard.

You know, after I wrote Communion I experienced what it was like to be a pariah and a national laughingstock. I had the experience of going on Larry King's show, sitting two feet away from Larry, and having him laugh in my face – I could smell his breath – in front of his two million listeners, or watchers I should say. It was hideous, it was agony.

Then Dr. John Mack – M.D., Harvard professor, Pulitzer Prize winner – suddenly did something so extraordinary and so brave it changed my life, Budd Hopkins' life, and the lives of everyone who had ever had a close encounter experience and was agonizing over it in one way or another.

The derision ended. People began to take another look at this. They began to say, “hey, maybe there's something in it.” John Mack went to the wall for this. He nearly lost his license, he nearly lost tenure, he nearly ended up on the street without a career, without a job. All on behalf on the fact that there is something extraordinary about the abduction experience. Tonight we're going to have a conversation with a real hero. A hero of science, an American hero. When we come back, my hero, Dr. John Mack. This is Whitley Strieber, it's Dreamland.

[station break, music: The Police, Invisible Sun]

WS: This is Whitley Strieber. We're back, Dr. John Mack is with us. John?

JM: Hi, Whitley.

WS: John, you just came back from a trip to India.

JM: Right.

WS: Right. We'd love to hear a little bit about what happened there. Why did you go to India?

JM: What happened was a group called Synthesis put together a delegation of about thirty people with about seventy supporters of that delegation at the invitation of the Dalai Lama to take a look at where we're going in the future, what can be done to address some of the conflicts in the world, some of the suffering that is going on. Every field was represented there; economics, politics, science, medicine, the media, education. And we spent several days and His Holiness was deeply involved in this, and rarely does he give that much time. And we were, most of us were inspired to take back a kind of wisdom that we always receive when we meet with him, because he on the one hand, he has such a complicated job being both the spiritual as well as the political head of the Tibetan people in their time of crisis. At the same time he is a simple loving human being without an attitude of vengeance, and a great caring; very inspiring. And I think what we were able to bring was a sense that there are people in all these major fields who are with him in his values and ideals, and with the Tibetan people. It was an extraordinary time.

WS: Why were you particularly invited?

JM: Well, I knew the organizers well because we had worked together on something called the Parliament of World Religions in the summer of 1993. Brian Muldoon and Barbara Bernstein were the chief organizers and they were particularly interested in people that were doing work that was on a kind of edge, of whatever their field might be. Questioning the economic system and economics, and in my situation, questioning – a really philosophical question – questioning of reality, questioning of what is the nature of the universe. I mean…

WS: Yes.

JM: …they are very familiar with the work I've done with people who've had these extraordinary experiences and they felt that that was an important area of possible transformation and change.

WS: Was the Dalai Lama aware of the nature of your work?

JM: Yeah, because we had met with him in 1992. He's had an interest in this all along and he sees this as an area that could mean something in terms of Western consciousness. For the Tibetan people or for Tibetan philosophy and religion, the universe is filled with beings of all kinds, some of whom can manifest in the material world, so this is not an extraordinary matter for them. But the fact that this is gaining attention in the West is an extraordinary matter, so that was particularly what has been interesting to him, and how this can open up Western thinking to appreciate a much different kind of universe.

WS: Well it certainly is extraordinary to me, because I have as you know had experiences with beings that could be both physical and not physical, and being from a Western background I was pretty surprised to discover that that actually was real.

“The problem we have in our philosophy in the West is we have a very vastly oversimplified notion of reality.”

JM: See the problem we have in our philosophy in the West is we have a very vastly oversimplified notion of reality. Either it's literally physical, just like everything around us that you can touch and feel and smell, or its in the realm of the imagination and then not materially real. But something that is in some senses not there physically, or comes from another dimension, or we don't know where, and then manifests in the physical world, we don't have any place for that in the philosophy that has grown up in the last several centuries in the West. But that's not true in Tibetan culture or in any of the philosophies and religions of the far east.

WS: Well that's right, so they're much more comfortable with this. And you, throughout Passport to the Cosmos, which as I will be saying many times during the course of this program, folks, there is a remarkable deal on. You can get a signed copy of this book, signed by John Mack. And you don't have to go to a bookstore, you don't have to go to a book signing, you don't have to hope he's coming to your town. What you can do is you can go to, that's…

JM: I think there's a hyphen between the “PEER” and the “Mack", I'm told…

WS: Well it works alright without the hyphen…

JM: Does it?

WS: Yeah, I'm on it right now, and I'm looking at it, and it's fine. But you can do it with a hyphen too if you'd like.


WS: Go to PEER Purchases, click on PEER Purchases, and you can get this book, and the price, for a signed copy, is an amazing twenty dollars. That's four dollars off the regular bookstore price, for a signed copy of Passport to the Cosmos. And let me tell you, I have read this book cover to cover. You know as well as I do that I don't read every book that we talk about on this show cover to cover. I read every word of this. It is awesome. Do not assume that it is a sequel to Abduction. It is far beyond that. John Mack has made a major breakthrough. Let's go on now, talking a little more about that breakthrough.

One of the things that is so extraordinary about this book is the way you integrate indigenous people's ideas and attitudes about this abduction experience throughout the book. Credo Mutwa, a leading African sansumi [?] or high medicine man, his ideas and his stories go through the whole book and they are truly amazing. We always think of this as being basically an American thing or at best a Western thing. But John Mack has blown that idea out of the water. They're doing it and doing it better in other parts of the world. So tell us a little bit about this man. How did you meet him and what was he like, and what happened to him?

JM: Actually I hadn't expected to meet him, when my associate Dominique Callimanopulos and I went to South Africa. Actually we were headed for Zimbabwe, because there had been some children at a school outside the capitol of Harare who had had some extraordinary sighting of UFOs that had landed in their schoolyard and they'd seen one or more “strange beings,” as one of the girls put it, come out of these spacecraft. And we received some drawings from these kids by fax, and telephone calls, so we were already planning to go to Africa but we changed our plans to make sure we went to that school. We also planned to go to South Africa for a week, and right then and there I was met at the airport and we were taken to a television station and there by satellite was Credo Mutwa because he had heard that I was going to talk about these experiences with these strange beings which he calls, or his people calls, Mandindas. Which to hear him describe those beings, [are] very much like the grey beings that we hear so much about here. And for the first time he then, he asked to see me. We spent several hours with him, and in a very movingly candid way, talked about the trauma that he'd undergone when he was a young man in the bush and had been through an experience very much like the ones that you have been through, Whitley. And at that time, I mean, I had never heard of Credo Mutwa and here within hours of landing in South Africa I was with this extraordinary medicine man talking about experiences so familiar to me from people in this country.

WS: Which is quite extraordinary. “I am shown that the world is dying. These creatures are trying to warn us about danger. The thing that you are looking into is real, it is not a figment of anybody's imagination.” This was part of the message of Credo Mutwa and it certainly is related to the kind of messages that I have been getting. And the book that Art and I wrote, The Coming Global Superstorm, is a direct response to that kind of message. What do you think this means, John? This is something you discuss quite a bit in the book as well, this message that seems to be beginning to focus. If you could describe the message that is focusing around the abduction experience, around this part of our ongoing contact, what would you say it is?

JM: Well you have to start with a certain mentality, which pervades the western way of thinking but is common throughout the world, which is the planet is a kind of piece of real estate that belongs to us and we can divide it up into countries and it is a marketplace for goods and for all kinds of resources and we have no responsibility beyond what we take from the Earth. In other words we act like the Earth essentially belongs to this one species. And that's changing of course with the increasing environmental awareness, but we've reached the place where basic resources are running out, the planet is becoming more and more polluted, the seas, the yield of fish from the seas is going down, and in effect we are in an extraordinary planetary crisis because of our inability to understand what native peoples all over the world understand, which is that there is a very delicate web of life, and that web of life is being destroyed by this species. So that's the background. But then what happens in these experiences is the message comes through to people that have had no particular environmental sensitivity or awareness, and the message says, “your planet is dying, this is not your planet. It does not belong to this one species.” And they are shown images of vast and exquisite beauty of the planet all over the Earth, and then those images are shown alongside images of the sea polluted, the trees dying, species disappearing, and they often react with shock when they see this, and it creates a very deep sadness, but at the same time a strong motivation on the part of many experiences – if they can get past the initial trauma of the experiences – they become very motivated to do something about this situation. They want to talk publicly about it, but again, many of them are so used to – you said at the beginning, you spoke about derision and ridicule, and that's a big problem, because this phenomenon is so frightening to many of is in the West, not so much because of what the aliens do or don't do to people, that's a part of it, but the deeper fear is that it tells us something about ourselves in the universe that is completely shattering to our worldview. In other words, it says that there are beings, creatures, whatever you want to call them, intelligences, who have powers, who have vision, who have intelligence and technological capabilities that we simply don't have. And that they can reach us and do with us what they will. I mean, what they do is not that destructive, but the fact that we are not in control, that there are other beings that come through to us in this way, it kind of topples the arrogance that is pervasive in the sense that we are alone somehow in the universe, and we are the smartest beings in the cosmos. There's a shock to discover that what native peoples all over the world of course have known and still know, and we used to know this too, that the universe is filled with beings, with intelligences which don't necessarily manifest in the material form, although they may, this is opening people to this kind of awareness. But the point is that people are afraid to speak up about this, because the tendency is to be laughed at, or in some way embarrassed for speaking about what is a deep truth for these individuals.

WS: Yes. On Tuesday, November 16th, something very extraordinary is going to happen at 7 o'clock in the evening. This is going to be the moment when Dr. John Mack, author of Passport to the Cosmos, Pulitzer Prize winner, is going to be speaking at the New York Academy of Medicine. Doors open at 6 PM. If you're anywhere in the Northeast, don't miss this. I would fly in for it.

JM: There also will be with me one of the people I've worked with, we call them experiencers – I don't like the term abductees, because that implies a kind of violence of being taken against one's will – and in addition to one of the experiencers will be on the podium with me our clinical director Roberta Colasanti, who will also be speaking, and it should be interesting I think. Also there'll be some experiencers in the audience who will speak up, so it'll be a kind of well rounded program, I hope.

WS: It's a chance to get insight into what is probably one of the most important human experiences in all of history. This is Whitley Strieber, it's Dreamland, we'll be back.

[station break]

WS: This is Whitley, I am back, we're talking to John Mack, Dr. John Mack, the Harvard professor and psychiatrist who brought legitimacy to the whole alien abduction experience. His new book, Passport to the Cosmos, is a breakthrough book from Crown. You can get a signed copy tonight if you go to Not for the cover price of $24 but for just $20, a copy of John Mack's book, Passport to the Cosmos, signed by Dr. Mack.

When we get back we're going to be talking about one of the subjects that is one of the most difficult subjects for me personally to talk about. When I was reading Dr. Mack's book, I was astonished to find myself quoted, some things I had said to Dr. Mack about this particular subject, which is sex. And I thought long and hard about whether or not I would even bring it up tonight, I'm very shy about it, but I think it's really important to talk about this, and to talk about fear. And if we can talk to Dr. Mack about this tonight, I think we're really going to learn something very very new. He's made some real breakthroughs in terms of his insight and his understanding of what's happening in both of these areas. The close encounter experience as it really is; John Mack is probably as close to the truth about this as anyone ever has been. This is Whitley Strieber, we'll be back in just a few minutes with John Mack.

[station break]

WS: This is Whitley Strieber, it's Dreamland, and we are back with John Mack. I know we are getting lots of calls. The entire third hour will be devoted to calls. So after the top of the hour I know a lot of you will want to talk to Dr. Mack and you will get your chance after the top of the hour.

I would like to quote from your book, John. “The sexual part of my relationship with the beings has been very complex and very rich and very difficult at times, because I am a married man. I've taken marriage vows which I believe in. To an extent this aspect of the experience has been thrust on me and it's not something I've been able to control. If it had been under my control, I would have felt very guilty. It's like having a second wife, with whom I have a secret relationship. I would wake up in a state of sexual excitement, in mid-intercourse. The physical dynamic is different, in the sense that the sensation of intercourse moves through your whole body, and you become totally devoted to it for longer than I do in normal intercourse. It is as if a level of sexuality I'm not normally involved with is engaged. It's very, very powerful.” Of course, that, I am quoting myself, as you know. Let's talk about this side of the experience, because you cannot really engage the close encounter experience unless you engage its sexual content, I don't think.

JM: Um, what we had heard – can you hear me ok?

WS: Yeah.

JM: What I had heard, before I got deeply into this, was that the sexual part of it was a kind of workman-like professionalism on the part of the beings, who would take sperm from the men by some sort of rubbing, or with some kind of equipment, and eggs were taken from the women, and a hybrid species was created. And a lot of people have that kind of experience. Although, I think that in the early years of investigating this, that was more common than it is now, this kind of traumatic, cold sort of experience. But little by little I began to find that if you work with people more intensely, and you stay with the fear and you allow them to go through this kind of dark night of the soul, we sometimes call it an “initiation” that people go through, the experience shifts, and the terror gives way, and the people discover that they have a deep connection with these beings. It's still a mystery where this connection comes from, what it's about, whether it is [for example] the future of our species coming back in some for, or if its an evocation of some kind of deep truth from human history, I really don't know. But what emerges, is – and, one might say, well, it could be something special about you, Whitley, but it's not…

WS: No, I know it's not, that's why I brought it up.

JM: …I've heard this story from many people. There's a whole section in the last chapter of the book called “Parenting on the Other Side,” in which there is usually one other being that the human has a very strong connection with, a very deep connection which may or may not have an erotic part to it, but it is a very deep, intimate, close and often sexual kind of experience, which has a very different quality than sexuality. So when people say, “Well, you write about sex with aliens,” you know, “ho ho ho,” it's really not like that. It's a much more transcendent, often highly spiritual and…

WS: Yes.

JM: …in a sense very odd relationship, because it's not based on like a physical attraction, it's a much deeper kind of soul-intimate relationship that seems to be on the other side of this terror that people go through. And I don't think we have enough information now to know that this lies on the other side of the terror for every individual, but I've certainly come across it over and over again, now, more recently.

WS: One of the things that comes up inevitably when you're talking about this is the idea of hybrids, of there being children that emerge out of this part of the experience. Do you have a sense, are we talking about something real, or something that is somehow a metaphor? For example, you said that the sexual content of it, was somehow or another related to the spirit, and I would agree with that totally. It is almost as if, if your soul could have sensations, these are the sensations it would have. Um, so what about the hybrids? What does that mean to you?

JM: Well I think you are asking a question that has to be asked. There's a danger when you talk about this phenomenon to start making the whole thing quite literal. That is, we talk about beings, we talk about erotic relationship as if this is somehow occurring in the same material sense that our everyday lives occurs. And it's really not like that. We don't know for instance, even though people have had, you know hundreds of thousands of people may have had this experience of having somehow participated in the creation of hybrids, we don't know that these hybrids exist in a literal, physical way. For instance if you were to sort of go up into the heavens and look inside a UFO, there would be hybrids being created, we don't have any tangible physical evidence of the existence of these hybrids. So we have to be very cautious about making this too literal a matter. We have, fundamentally, the experiences that people have had. And these are people of sound mind, I mean I should say that really clearly. We've done very careful psychological and psychiatric examinations of these individuals, we have done comparison studies, control studies, and there isn't any indication that there's a psychiatric explanation of this phenomenon. Nor is there any suggestion that this is somehow something people have taken in because they have watched too many television shows or seen to many movies that have to do with aliens. On the contrary, the filmmakers go to the researchers to get their material so they can make the movies. So, it is in some way a very real experience, but the problem is that we are so limited philosophically in the West that it's either literally, physically real, or its just imagination, it doesn't exist. But what do we do when people of sound mind have powerful experiences that affect their bodies? They'll talk about a profound vibrational experience that occurs, and yet we cannot prove it from a literal, physical point of view. What do we do with that? I think that's one of the struggles that people who work in this field have…

Ws: Yeah.

JM: …because we don't really have what one might call a “science of experience,” or what Robert John, a researcher at Princeton, calls a “science of the subjective.” We think of science as demonstrating the physical, objective reality of something, and there are physical dimensions to the abduction experience, but it's not only physical. It seems to come from some place that is “beyond the veil.”

WS: It's kind of both. I've had experiences that were just extraordinarily physical. And others that weren't. And some that started out non-physical, became physical. I think all of us are in the same boat. We, those of us who are having this experience, often you can't even tell if it is physical or not, it's just so intense and overwhelming and powerful. And you are left in a state of a kind of glorious shock. And you don't know where it's coming from. It's coming from everywhere all at once.

JM: Yeah. But the thing that science struggles with in this country is that we don't know what to do with something that is an experience, is very powerful, has a physical element, experientially a physical element, may even have some physical signs (marks on the body, cuts, scoop marks) and yet, the physical element cannot be demonstrated to or proved by the methods that science is accustomed to. So what do with that? We can't dismiss it, or we shouldn't dismiss it, because from a human point of view it is as powerful as anything we know. And yet we can't nail it down in the way that science prefers. So we have this kind of crisis, in a way, a crisis of knowing.

WS: There is a quote in the book that really stunned me. And I'm going to read it right now.
     "I wouldn't try to publish a scientific paper about these things, because I can't do any experiments. I can't make glowing raccoons appear. I can't buy them from a scientific supply house to study. I can't cause myself to be lost again for several hours. But I don't deny what happened. It's what science calls anecdotal, because it only happened in a way that you can't reproduce. But it happened."[1]
Now, what so amazed me is that this, what appears to me – John is going to tell us a little story – to be a description of missing time and a face-to-face encounter with the greys, was written by a Nobel Prize laureate, Kary Mullis, about an experience that occurred one night in 1985. Can you tell us John a little bit about this, since we are in the process of discussing why science seems unable to study this?

JM: Well Dr. Mullis didn't write a great deal about this in his autobiography, but apparently he was in the woods one night and there were these kind of glowing raccoon-like figures, and they were very real for him, he then as he said in his quote missed several hours. It was so real that he went back into the woods to try to find these beings or some indication of them and he couldn't, yet he knew what he had experienced. So he's like many of the people who have these experiences. People say, “Well, prove it,” but they can't prove it, they just know, like [the character] Ellie Arroway in the film Contact, where she says “Everything I know about myself tells me that this happened, that this is real.” And the people who have been through this, they don't care whether you can prove it or not. It's true for them, it's powerful for them, they know they are of sound mind, someone like me can verify that they are of sound mind, and the meaning and power and significance of this phenomenon is there, whether or not you can prove it in a literal, physical way like Dr. Mullis says. Now, another point that needs to be made, these raccoons, these bright raccoons, that's very common…

WS: Yeah, I've seen them myself.

JM: …People often first report that what they saw were some sort of an animal. They saw an animal, a raccoon, a deer, birds – big birds, owls, whatever. But then when you go more deeply into the experience, it turns out that this is a kind of a mask. A kind of disguise for something else, which is these strange beings. And this is interesting, because these animal figures, I found out from a South American medicine man who I write about in the book, these particular animals that are the disguises that the beings take are also animals that have spirit significance for those particular individuals. Now, the indigenous peoples, the native peoples know who their power animals are. Bernardo Peixoto, who is in the book, who is a South American or Brazilian shaman, he says that they can tell which are the ikuyas, which are these beings which may come disguised as an animal that is the power animal or significant animal for somebody, or whether it – let's say it shows up as an owl – is really an owl. They can tell the difference. But there is some way in which this phenomenon drives consciousness into a place that is very similar to the consciousness that native people have.

WS: Yeah. I agree with that totally. You, the deeper you get into it and the longer it stays in your life, the more awe and respect you have for the accomplishment of indigenous mankind as it were and the way they have succeeded in penetrating into other dimensions. It's just, they are a really awesome people.

JM: I had the experience about five years ago, which was very heartening to me because I was under a fair amount of criticism, or you know, I couldn't prove all of this, “How do you know these experiences are real?", “How do you decide what is real?", you know, there was a strong challenging of this and I was under, as you said earlier, under a lot of pressure…

WS: Yeah, about to have your life wrecked.

JM: Well, it was not that bad, but…

WS: It sure scared me.

JM: But, but a number of Native people came to me, called me, to help me. In other words they came forward and said, “hey, look, we know about this. This is commonplace in our lives.” These are Native Americans. “We know about these beings, we've had these experiences.” And it turns out that Sequoyah Trueblood, who is in the book, who is a Native American medicine man, I asked him, “Well, Sequoyah, you know a hundred, a hundred-fifty medicine men or so, in your life. How many of them have had these kind of encounter experiences?". He said, “All of them."[2]

WS: Wow. All of them.

JM: And I found that very supportive. Because they came. You know, they hadn't talked…they don't talk publicly about this. I guess it's hard enough to be a Native American, you don't have to get labeled…

WS: Yes.

JM …a UFO abduction nut on top of it. So they keep it. It's also sacred. They don't talk about these things unless they have reason to.

WS: When I lived in upstate New York I had two men who came who said to me that they were Delaware Indians, and I have no reason to doubt them, and they wanted to show me something in the woods that I owned at that time behind my house. And they took me back into those woods and showed me a place which turned out to be a place where a number of Delaware medicine men were mar – were buried. And as a result of being shown this, I had put in the deed the fact that these – or in the conservation easement that was on the land – that these graves could never be dug up for archeological reasons. So that they would be forever kept. And I used to go out there at night, and very often in that particular area you would see the Greys. I must say that it was never a really direct physical experience, but there was certainly something going on there in that particular space. And I felt like, you know, that these people, the graves were ancient. Huge trees were growing out of them. And I thought to myself, how long have these people kept in the privacy of their tribal memory the knowledge of these graves? Probably hundreds of years, or maybe even more. So it's, that culture even in the United States, as oppressed as the Native Americans are, they're still very much attached to the land, and to their own past. And there's some kind of a connection between them and this.

JM: In some ways, these beings sometimes seem like the protectors of the Earth. Sometimes experiencers are given information by the beings that they are messengers from Source or God or the Divine to protect the Earth.

WS: Ok, when we come back, the lines will be open. West of the Rockies, 1-800-…This is Whitley Strieber, it's Dreamland.

WS: This is Whitley Strieber. Dr. John Mack, Harvard psychiatrist. M.D., Pulitzer Prize-Winner. Author of the groundbreaking Abduction and now, Passport to the Cosmos, the book that is going to begin the process of really understanding what is going on. John Mack is in contact. He is making sense of contact; something I never thought would happen in my lifetime. When we get back, it will be your phone calls, your chance to talk to Dr. John Mack. This is Whitley Strieber, it's Dreamland and we'll be back.

WS: Ok, we're going to go straight to the phones. Craig in Washington D.C..


WS: Hi Craig, you're on the air. You've got a question for Dr. Mack?

CRAIG: I am so thrilled to be on, I love the show.

WS: Thanks.

CRAIG: It's very nice to talk to you guys. And I just want to make an initial comment. The hourly news that we have to listen to when you do your breaks, I hate that, it's giving me such a weird perception of reality.

WS: It's funny that you say that!

CRAIG: Whitley, you were the Communion guy, right?

WS: Right.

CRAIG: This moved me. It really gave me another, yet another in a long stream apparently, a thin slice of enlightenment. You've really helped me out in certain ways and I appreciate that movie and it's documentation. Now my question is, doctor, are there people that are alive in society right now who actually live with the knowledge of all the wiring under the board of life? Of everything? Is that possible? Somebody completely aware?

JM: Well it depends what you mean. I mean, if you mean…people like, who know everything? Sometimes you meet people who think they do. But that's not really what you're asking. I think you're asking something else. If some, somehow through their experiences, they have been opened up to some vast field of knowledge. Something like that, I think you're asking? Say more about your question, I'm not sure I'm getting the whole thrust of what you're asking.

CRAIG: It just seems like there are people at certain key positions in society, in life, in culture, especially in the United States, that seem to be opening up people's minds in a big way. Have you ever heard of the magician named David Blane?

JM: No, I haven't.

CRAIG: Whitley?

WS: No, I haven't either. Tell us a little bit about him.

CRAIG: This guy, he's had a couple of ABC specials, and he just does these man on the street magician acts, but saying magician acts is kind of discrediting the guy because he goes out and does instant psychic stuff with people he picks at random. Some of the tricks that he does, some of the illusions, I don't even know what words to use to describe what he actually puts on camera. But they are some sort of mind play that are too beyond reality to dismiss. You can't dismiss them and I can't even describe them to you.

JM: Oh, I see, you're asking about psychics. No, I think there's something there. I mean, I personally have had experiences with psychics who knew things about me that there was just no way they could have known. And some of the best psychics just tune in. There's just no way they could have gotten that information from any other source. I mean, there are many, many situations I've seen like that. They have a capacity to somehow open up to the consciousness field of another person, and get tuned in. Whether it's telepathic, or it's part of what the Hindus call the Akashic record, in other words that all knowledge is somehow registered, you just have to find a way to tap into it, I don't know. But there are psychics that know things that they have not been told by the usual means of communication.

CRAIG: It's like this guy has otherworldly airs. And I just think that there are all levels of society and business and commerce and major religions, I think it's all there. Do any of you know what the Illuminati are?

WS: You know that's a very interesting question. And I can address it for a very strange reason. I never really believed there was such a thing as the Illuminati. But I think I was once approached very subtly by the Illuminati. I was at a house of a man out in – a rather wonderful man out in the pacific northwest. And he quite casually showed me an initiation manual for the Illuminati that was printed in 1910. And I don't think I've ever seen or heard of the existence of such a book before or since. I'm going to have Robert Anton Wilson on this program sooner or later, he's the expert on this issue of are there “illuminated” individuals. Is there anybody out there who really knows the whole truth? You know, people in the close encounter experience tend to be full of questions rather than answers. The ones that are full of answers are usually kind of scared of facing the fact that we don't know what the heck is going on.

JM: Yeah, I mean this is a real mystery. I think that's part of…I guess you're going to have other callers so let's, I'll hold my comments, why don't you take another caller. Thanks, Craig.

WS: Yeah, thanks very much Craig, it was a good call. Ok, Carl, the last time Carl was on – and he's been very patient, he's called many many times since then – we challenged him. And he is going to respond now to that challenge. Hi Carl.

CARL in OKLAHOMA: Hello Whitley, hello Dr. Mack.

JM: Hi.

CARL: I met you both at the '97 Roswell meetings. I met with you briefly at the bathroom when I gave you an extinction cycle letter.

WS: Which one of us are you talking to?

CARL: To Dr. Mack.

JM: Uh huh? Yeah?

CARL: The reason that we have this extraordinary visitations of all these different aliens is that we are their creators. Not the other way around. There are certain classes of these aliens that are tampering with our genetics, i.e. trying to interbreed and crossbreed and escape a purification and cleansing that is coming to our Earth. This is part and parcel of the extinction cycle of events that I spoke to you about, Whitley, several months ago.

JM: Carl, tell us about where your sources come from. How do you get this information?

CARL: I am the true Messiah, I am the Creator of Creators. In my genes in my genetic makeup is the restoration of the gene pool that we require, and that is one of the three…

WS: Carl, let me ask you a question.

CARL: Yes?

WS: When you say this, and this is sort of your schpeil, you say this whenever you come on the air, or a version of it. Are you really saying – are you speaking for all mankind? Or is this a personal thing?

CARL: For all life in the universe, Whitley.

WS: Ok, so in other words, what you're saying is that this is not Carl, this is, you are expressing the meaning, in your words, the meaning or the sense of all living creatures?

CARL: Yes, I am the father of all life.

JM: No, but his question is…[crosstalk]…you as an individual are, or you as a participant?

CARL: I am the creator of creators.

JM: As an individual you mean?

CARL: Not as an individual, per se, but in my genetics is encoded…

JM: Right, but, could you say that of each of us? In other words, could I say that of myself, or Whitley of himself?

CARL: Each of you are co-Creators in the universe.

JM: Yeah, ok.

CARL: And each of you are the forefathers and foremothers of these alien beings that are back, tampering with our genes. Now there are two classes of alien beings that are literally tampering, i.e., crossbreeding without our species, and they themselves are from our own ancient future, and they are trying to keep their creators – which are the evil and the wicked on this Earth – alive through what we have coming ahead of us now.

JM: You've seen this? What, you've had visions of this, is that it?

CARL: It's in my blood because…

JM: But I mean the knowledge is something that you just sort of know? Or you've been informed of this, or..?

CARL: It's genetically encoded in my genes. And each of us has some form of that left. Even my own genes are polluted. But you know, we're short on time here, and I can't explain all of that to you now.

WS: Ok Carl, thank you.

JM: Thank you very much.

WS: That was fascinating. And strange. And maybe true. And maybe…we don't know. But we do know we have a number of other callers, let's go to Jim in Las Vegas...

[1] Nobel Prize winner Kary Mullis (who is quoted in Dr. Mack's book Passport to the Cosmos) tells his story of an encounter with “glowing raccoons” in his book Dancing Naked in the Mind Field, published by Pantheon Books in 1998. The chapter, titled “No Aliens Allowed,” is a seven page description of his encounter and includes mention of Whitley Strieber's Communion. His experience occurred on a “tree farm” near the Navarro River in Mendocino Country, CA. His book is a delightful read. Mullis, born in 1944, won the Nobel Prize in chemistry in 1993 for developing the polymerase chain reaction, a method for amplifying DNA, multiplying a single strand billions of times within hours so that genes can be studied for medicinal, forensic, and other applications.

[2] Sequoyah Trueblood’s (Dec 15, 1940-) assertion of Native American heritage is disputed; the Trueblood line from which he is descended were Quakers who came from England in the late 1600s. Census records identify various descendants by the early 1900s as Native American (referred to then as “Indian”), and the Trueblood surname appears as being Choctaw in the Dawes Roll. His belief that his father (1921?-2006) was Choctaw may be sincere but definitive documentation about his actual percentage of Native American heritage seems to be lacking..

Whitley Strieber's Dreamland, 14 November 1999
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